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Post by Mark_LA on Sept 14, 2015 1:00:07 GMT -5
It's great to put faces to names, although I already knew what some of you looked like. I figured traffic is slow around these parts, so I might as well come out of the closet and show my face. You guys feel like family. Also, there is a huge movement in the USA for us alkies and addicts to put faces to our names, to raise awareness so that addiction loses its stigma. Here's a link: manyfaces1voice.org/I'm joining the rally in DC on October 4th. www.facingaddiction.org/Thanks for posting these links, Blue. While I understand and sympathize with the desire for societal acceptance and freedom from stigma for addicts, I wonder if it’s really plausible, or indeed defensible. Awareness campaigns like "Many Faces” seem to come from a standpoint of painting the stigmatized as being entirely “victims,” which is fine for most causes. However, no matter how you slice it, even if you subscribe to the “disease” model of addiction, personal participation and responsibility factor both in becoming an addict and in the process of recovery from addiction. That’s a fundamental difference from any other “disease” or cause in which the stigma sufferers are more arguably blameless. Nature and nurture may have stacked the deck against me, but no one forced me to play a hand. In other words, I may have had a genetic and/or environmental predisposition to addiction, but the responsibility for drinking until the addictive potential was realized falls at least partly on my shoulders. Similarly, recovery from my addiction requires my active participation and acceptance of responsibility, unlike most other “diseases.” I think this distinction may limit the extent of sympathy and tolerance the public at large can ever develop for our affliction, no matter their level of awareness. Sorry, bit wordy and convoluted as usual, and perhaps not even very sensible, but just my thoughts at the moment.
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Post by Dana on Sept 14, 2015 11:28:22 GMT -5
Hi Mark, I think I'm on the fence with this one. I kind of agree with you... but to play devil's advocate - isn't it true that recovery/remission from other diseases, like cancer, also require active participation. One must make the decision to get the treatment (chemo, radiation, surgery) and then follow through with that. The biggest difference being that there are tests to identify the disease, and educated doctors who can prescribe the best course of action.
The other thing that makes me ponder is that this alcoholism/addiction disease is different in that we must first admit we have it. All too often the broken brain tries to tell us we don't have it. And some people live their whole lives with the belief that they don't have it - it's their truth, I'm not even sure to call it denial is always accurate although sometimes it applies, but in those cases there's no chance of seeking treatment or a different way of living, if they believe nothing is wrong. It is a baffling ism for sure.
I dunno... I'm just glad I recognized it in myself "in time" - before I had to lose absolutely everything. My dignity, hope, and self-respect were losses enough, but I got to keep my most important relationships, my job, and my roof. And I'm working on getting all the other stuff back. And I'm happy to help anyone who reaches out.
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Post by gwampa69 on Sept 14, 2015 11:43:09 GMT -5
Dana Said:
"And I'm happy to help anyone who reaches out".
Me too.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Sept 14, 2015 20:46:36 GMT -5
Dana,
You said, "Hi Mark, I think I'm on the fence with this one. I kind of agree with you... but to play devil's advocate - isn't it true that recovery/remission from other diseases, like cancer, also require active participation. One must make the decision to get the treatment (chemo, radiation, surgery) and then follow through with that. The biggest difference being that there are tests to identify the disease, and educated doctors who can prescribe the best course of action."
I see a difference more in the acquisition of the "disease" rather than the cure. While it is certainly true that lifestyle and choices play a roll in some types of cancer, such as lung cancer, many types of cancer require no participation on the part of the afflicted. Alcohol addiction requires active participation by the alcoholic. I do believe that there is a genetic susceptibility and that some day an enhanced ability of the alcoholic to break the addiction will involve addressing the genetic aspect of this. BUT, no one held me down and poured alcohol down my throat on a daily basis for years. I had to face up to my responsibility in becoming an alcoholic to enable the taking of personal responsibility for my recovery. I have a cousin who uses a genetic predisposition and the disease model to explain why her son is a drug addict and an alcoholic. Maybe. And maybe he was also completely spoiled, had too much time on his hands, too much disposable, no questions asked, income, and no parental guidance. His disease will be cured when and if he decides he wants to make something of himself, wants to be sober more than he wants to be drunk, and is willing to work toward that end. For him and for his mother, "disease" is an excuse, and as long as he/they choose to view is as such and avoid personal responsibility, his addictions will only continue to worsen.
Mark/Jeyu
Re-reading this, it sounds like somewhat of a rant, and I guess it is. I just got off the phone with that same cousin who said, "This was so easy for you. It just isn't as easy for everyone."
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Post by angelina1512 on Sept 14, 2015 21:37:24 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
Mark your version of your cousin, a lot of people think it has been easy for me as well. There has not been one day at the start that was " easy" it just takes guts to do it. It not for sissies, you have to want to have a better life more than a drunken life.
i think the mind has a lot to do with all of it. It takes positive thinking, I think doctors hand out medication to easy, I think places like here are better than taking a pill when feeling down, or up.
I have never been one to think oh I'm feeling bad, that pill will help. It doesn't. It's an inside job, without medication.
But if it was chemo or radiation, yes that is necessary but the attitude with it I'm sure would have to help.
when my Mum first went into the nursing home, she was 89, had lost everything in the floods in Victoria so we had no choice but put her into a home. Now at that age, she had lost everything, photos, music, clothes, everything. She was feeling down, the doctor suggested anti depressants. Now that didn't sit well with Mum my sister and myself.
mum took the attitude that she would be grateful for what she had rather than didn't have. No pill can do that. Yes she grieved, she was sad, but she then moved forward. Looking backwards never helped.
Not sure where this is taking me. I think sitting around having too much time on ones hands is never good for the brain, but a pill certainly won't fix it.
angelina/Tutu
ps. We have another prime minister. Abbott out turnbull in. When the chips are down they just throw them out and put another one in. Like a pill, if it doesn't work, try another one.
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Post by Dana on Sept 15, 2015 7:24:06 GMT -5
Hi Mark/Tutu - I agree there could be some genetic predisposition to the alcoholism/addiction in some people, but not everyone. Just like there is a predisposition for, say, an autoimmune disorder if the parents have one. Doesn't mean you're necessarily going to get an autoimmune disorder, but if other factors are present then you just might, where someone without the predisposition doesn't (all else being equal).
In order to begin to climb out of the darkness, the hopelessness, rock bottom has to be hit first. "Rock bottom" will look different for everyone, and it makes no difference the circumstances that got you there. Until we are desperate for a better way of life, nothing will work. Some of us get that 'gift of desperation' and some of us don't. I don't know why, other than those that don't have it, haven't hit bottom yet I guess.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Sept 15, 2015 10:31:42 GMT -5
Hi Dana,
Your statement, "Until we are desperate for a better way of life, nothing will work" is completely true and, in my opinion, the one common denominator in successful recovery. Once that point has truly been reached, there are many methods of recovery that seem to work. Prior to that point, few, if any, lead to long term recovery.
On another note, thank you for taking the lead in trying to make this new forum a place that could help many, both now and in the future, find their own paths to recovery.
Mark/Jeyu
JFDI
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Post by Dana on Sept 15, 2015 10:43:02 GMT -5
Mark/Jeyu - I'm just glad BuddyT went scouting out a new home for us. Think we are all just taking his lead maybe, eh? Although... he's been awfully quiet since we moved in. At any rate, without everyone's participation here it wouldn't stand much chance for survival - so it is *I* who thanks *you* for helping to keep this place alive!
Now - to work on your junior member status... only 24 more posts to go!!! YOU CAN DO IT! :-)
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Post by angelina1512 on Sept 15, 2015 20:13:19 GMT -5
Hey Dana
sorry Mark is busy trying to get things done so he come down under and met me :-)))) well he knows me well but never given me a real hug, so he won't be posting as much.
we will work on his junior status when he gets back, but for now it's all about ME LOL
angelina/tutu
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 21:16:25 GMT -5
Hey Ang, I think you are way too judgemental on people who take pills. You don't know their situation or whether their family or partner or parents put them on them in the first place. Did they even have a choice? If you want this forum to be an open welcoming place then its not when people make nasty comments about people on medication. Alcohol is a pill like any other so what's the difference? Maybe this forum can help people addicted to pills the same as it helps those addicted to alcohol.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Sept 15, 2015 22:15:08 GMT -5
Hey Kim,
I hope you are doing well down under. As TuTu said, I've been pretty busy here lately trying to tie things up to be able to visit your beautiful land briefly to visit family and for business.
Since Ang spoke to Dana for me about my time, I think I'll speak for her here. I think you two are saying the same thing. You said, "Alcohol is a pill like any other so what's the difference?" The way I read her comments, that's exactly what she is trying to get across, and is communicating that in her situation, substituting a potentially addictive substance for a substance that she was addicted to would not work.
The thread is "Addictive Personality". I take that to mean that some people are more susceptible to addictions than others. I, quite honestly, saw no harsh statements in her post, and nothing that would prevent those with addictions other than alcohol from joining in. Ang broke addictions to both alcohol and smoking and did so primarily with the forum as her help and support. I think that is a testament to the power of this place.
Mark/Jeyu (Dana, I'm step closer to a sticker for my locker!)
JFDI
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Post by Mark_LA on Sept 15, 2015 22:29:25 GMT -5
Easy there, Kim. Remember that the less people know about a topic, the more likely they are to make broad generalizations which they don't know are inaccurate. I've done it, and I bet you've done it too. The cure is education, not criticism.
Angelina, remember to keep an open mind and not to make sweeping judgments about things you might not know much about. Remember when you first became aware of alcoholism and came in with a lot of preconceived notions about it that turned out to be false once you got educated about it a bit? Well, I'd say the same is true of your attitude towards anti-depressants. Try being a little more open-minded and willing to be educated.
It may be true that some physicians, completely overwhelmed by an unmanageable patient load and a broken system, over-prescribe anti-depressants when they simply don't have the time or resources to treat each patient's case with the care and attention it deserves. However, that does NOT mean that all anti-depressants are bad or useless, or that all cases of depression can be treated with "positive thinking," or that taking anti-depressants always represents a cop-out or a failure to work hard at recovering from depression.
My own experience was that I developed a severe case of acute clinical depression 20 years ago, well before I developed alcoholism. No amount of "positive thinking" could even have begun to touch it. My brain chemistry was completely out of whack. In order to climb out, I needed a lot more intensive help than simple "positive thinking" could provide, and that included a course of an anti-depressant which I'm convinced to this day saved my life. What it did was to halt the terrible vicious out-of-control spiral that my brain was stuck in, and helped stabilize things enough so that the work I did in therapy (which indeed included "positive thinking") could do some good. I can say quite confidently that without the help of the anti-depressant, I would have killed myself.
I'm far from being the only person that anti-depressants have genuinely helped. Remember, just because they're over-prescribed doesn't mean they're all bad.
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Post by achilles1957 on Sept 15, 2015 22:53:24 GMT -5
Hi everyone, Mark your version of your cousin, a lot of people think it has been easy for me as well. There has not been one day at the start that was " easy" it just takes guts to do it. It not for sissies, you have to want to have a better life more than a drunken life. i think the mind has a lot to do with all of it. It takes positive thinking, I think doctors hand out medication to easy, I think places like here are better than taking a pill when feeling down, or up. I have never been one to think oh I'm feeling bad, that pill will help. It doesn't. It's an inside job, without medication. But if it was chemo or radiation, yes that is necessary but the attitude with it I'm sure would have to help. when my Mum first went into the nursing home, she was 89, had lost everything in the floods in Victoria so we had no choice but put her into a home. Now at that age, she had lost everything, photos, music, clothes, everything. She was feeling down, the doctor suggested anti depressants. Now that didn't sit well with Mum my sister and myself. mum took the attitude that she would be grateful for what she had rather than didn't have. No pill can do that. Yes she grieved, she was sad, but she then moved forward. Looking backwards never helped. Not sure where this is taking me. I think sitting around having too much time on ones hands is never good for the brain, but a pill certainly won't fix it. angelina/Tutu ps. We have another prime minister. Abbott out turnbull in. When the chips are down they just throw them out and put another one in. Like a pill, if it doesn't work, try another one. Hi Ang, I agree with you re "doctors hand out medication too easy" however that doesn't negate the very real need for medication on very real mental imbalances/disorders. You're generalising and simplifying the hugely broad "mind" aspect of the human being.. we're all so very different and I believe what works for some, won't necessarily work for others. You've voiced your opinions on this a number of times in the past and I've thought better than to take you to task on it however I believe than when you voice these opinions, it can lead others (who NEED medication) to feel that they're "not as good as/less than" those folks who can overcome obstactles without such means. Mental illness is just as "real" as physical illness, it's not just a matter of JFDI for many folks who suffer these debilitating conditions. You overcame your addictions on your own, and I applaud you for that, but to insinuate that "it just takes guts" is not only incorrect but I believe extremely damaging and possibly ostracises the many people out there who take, and need, medication. For some people it takes more than "guts" and those who don't make it aren't lacking in guts but perhaps have more issues and more hurdles to overcome. A little more compassion and a little less "comparisons" would go a long way. My dad would have been dead 20 years prior without medication .. not the same strokes for all folks!! A little humility goes a long way.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Sept 15, 2015 23:23:08 GMT -5
Mark and Jenn,
Mark, I'm certainly glad that physician twenty years ago knew what he was doing. You are a testament to what recovery can be. Your openness and willingness to share has been of immense help to many others, myself included. And Jenn, the same goes for you, especially concerning your dad. At one time, I suffered severe depression as well. To varying degrees, it lasted until I quit drinking last year. I have never gone this long in my life without several episodes of significant depression. In my case, antidepressants helped, but by far the most effective treatment for my depression was the absence of alcohol in my body for a significant period of time. Over the last year, I have had this tested a few times. Several events have affected me by causing sadness, worry, stress, disgust, etc. These would always precede episodes of depression while I was drinking, but in the absence of alcohol they are just the normal emotional swings that occur in life. They were dealt with and dismissed. I am excited that this has happened, an unexpected reward for sobriety. I am not at all against the use of antidepressants or other prescribed medications where indicated. I'm also not saying that everyone else will experience the same positive benefits that I did, but for me, the most effective "pill" for MY depression was the absence of the drug alcohol.
Mark/Jeyu
JFDI
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Post by Mark_LA on Sept 16, 2015 0:10:55 GMT -5
M/J, I certainly experienced severe depression and suicidal ideation associated with my alcoholism as well, but it was distinctly different from the bout of major depression that preceded it by at least 5 years. When I suffered that first depressive episode 20 years ago, I hardly drank at all. In fact, I can remember getting raving drunk once during that bout of depression just to see if it would have any effect or help me escape the intense horror and hopelessness that was overwhelming me. It didn't. I was depressed, and then I was drunk and depressed, and then I was hung over and depressed (I still got hangovers in those days, as I hadn't developed tolerance or dependence yet). That depressive episode had nothing to do with alcohol.
Later, after my alcoholism developed and took hold, I got depressed too, but it got better on its own within a few months of my quitting drinking for the last time. It had pretty much everything to do with alcohol. Many of the symptoms were similar, and perhaps some aspects of the neurochemistry were too, but they felt fundamentally quite different.
This is how I experienced it, anyway, but I concede my perceptions may not be 100% accurate.
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