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Post by gwampa69 on Oct 20, 2018 16:09:57 GMT -5
Soberinmi and for anyone else reading, here is my original “attack”:
“Hi Soberinmi I just wanted to point out that not everyone on the forum (past and the few present) are in a 12 step program. AA is not for everyone, and while your comments undoubtedly come from a well meaning place, assuming people prescribe to that method is a bit presumptuous. Best Gwampa69”
The mere fact that he/she took this as an attack is interesting.
A troll is someone who jumps into a blog, thread etc. and intentionally stirs things up. At first I didn’t take you as a troll. Just someone that assumes that everyone is in AA because that’s what you do. So I mentioned that possibility, nicely. Arrogance? You accused me of arrogance but you may want to look at yourself on that as well.
I’ve been on this and the previous forum for 5 years. Supporting people whether they meet the definition of an alcoholic or not (you sure are hung up on that by the way). If alcohol is a problem in someone’s life, I hardly think the label really matters all that much.
Slimkim was voicing her opinion and feelings on the subject. Again you feel attacked. Time for some more personal inventory I guess. Sorry, again. Gwampa
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 20, 2018 16:24:31 GMT -5
Soberinmi and for anyone else reading, here is my original “attack”: “Hi Soberinmi I just wanted to point out that not everyone on the forum (past and the few present) are in a 12 step program. AA is not for everyone, and while your comments undoubtedly come from a well meaning place, assuming people prescribe to that method is a bit presumptuous. Best Gwampa69” The mere fact that he/she took this as an attack is evidence of a “dry drunk” (sorry to use another AA phrase). A troll is someone who jumps into a blog, thread etc. and intentionally stirs things up. I’ve been on this and the previous forum for 5 years. Supporting people whether they meet the definition of an alcoholic or not (you sure are hung up on that by the way). If alcohol is a problem in someone’s life, I hardly think the label really matters all that much. Slimkim was voicing her opinion and feelings on the subject. Again you feel attacked. Time for some more personal inventory I guess. Sorry, again. Gwampa It has already been pointed out that not all the active members here are active in AA. Other than myself, all the active members appear to active anti AA members.
The attacks started with YOU accusing me of being "presumptuous," even after your apology, because I support AA and you don't. By your definition, you are a troll. Mark_LA attacked me accusing me of being an "AA zealot." Slimkim was among the attacking trolls. If she wants to open the door, I have the discretion to make use of it. Visitors need to know who can help and who may hurt them.
Supporting problem drinker is one thing, but pretending to be an alcoholic and dispensing advise on alcoholism as if you know something about it is harmful ego stroking, alcoholism can and does kill! AA works because an alcoholic can best identify with or relate to another. In other words, a newcomer can't see the forest for the trees, but a newcomer can see himself in others, that is why there are so many 12-step programs and why Bill W. and Dr. Bob hooked up. Alcoholics also know what works for alcoholics and what doesn't.
What can you share about your psychiatric condition that may help other psychos?
It's pretty sick to want to be an "alcoholic" when you are not, but nonalcoholic drug addicts would rather be "alcoholics" than drug addicts. Who is sicker?
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Post by gwampa69 on Oct 20, 2018 16:31:19 GMT -5
I didn’t accuse you. You are presumptuous. Because you presumed she had a sponsor etc. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the last thing I wanted to be is an alcoholic. And for the record, you have no idea what I’ve gone through to get and stay sober. Passages of Malibu isn’t on the list. AA didn’t work for me. Even though my former sponsor and family members would surely agree. I’m an alcoholic. Really wish I wasnt. It’s not a “club” I wanted to join.
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 20, 2018 16:34:05 GMT -5
I didn’t accuse you. You are presumptuous. Because you presumed she had a sponsor etc. I can’t speak for anyone else, but the last thing I wanted to be is an alcoholic. And for the record, you have no idea what I’ve gone through to get and stay sober. Passages of Malibu isn’t on the list. AA didn’t work for me. Even though my former sponsor and family members would surely agree. I’m an alcoholic. Really wish I wasnt. It’s not a “club” I wanted to join. Actions speak LOUDER than words! And inflammatory speech tends to inflame, whether true or not!
Assuming something not in evidence is not "presumptuous": "full of, characterized by, or showing presumption or readiness to presume in conduct or thought, as by saying or doing something without right or permission" or "unwarrantedly or impertinently bold; forward."
The correct word is "assumed," but I am going to "assume" that you know the difference, therefore you were and are in fact trolling.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Oct 21, 2018 16:49:48 GMT -5
I came to the old forum over four years ago, desperately trying to find some help and encouragement to try to make it through the night without drinking. I had quit drinking on many occasions, and with conviction, only to start back that night or the next day. Alcohol was controlling my life and I felt that this was my last chance to escape its control over me. Over the next several months, I managed to make it through withdrawal and stayed abstinent from alcohol. I was certainly willing to try AA and read much of the literature, but found that the forum, in its previous form, was the support that I needed to remain abstinent and to make progress toward sobriety. I learned that there was a big difference between abstinence and sobriety from the people here. There were those here who had what I wanted, happiness and contentment in life without alcohol. I saw that it was possible for me as well and it has been. There were also those who had what I didn’t want; one can learn from both good and bad examples.
I attended my 45th high school class reunion recently and the alcohol was flowing. I had absolutely no desire to drink, even though most of my classmates were, some to excess. I enjoyed the evening socializing with old friends. That would have been impossible 5 years ago.
I am a better person now than I was when alcohol controlled my life, and I will be a better person tomorrow, next month, and next year than I am today. For many who posted once or twice over the years, then left, this place obviously did not work, but for several of us it has, and I will be eternally grateful for their help.
Mark/Jeyu
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 21, 2018 17:15:18 GMT -5
There is one simple and inescapable truth, no website by itself can provide enough support to get someone who is truly alcoholic sober and keep them sober, that's just the nature of the beast. Your "friends" on here prove that, being outed, they resort to trolling while still insisting that this website, and/or its predecessor, got them and keeps them sober.
There is a local Salvation Army location that runs, not just hosts, but runs a bible-based 12-step recovery program and it claims to help people recover from any and all ills. One woman in particular used to claim that this recovery program can get and keep you sober because they give you the tools to do so except that there is never any discussion of abstinence techniques and a quick look around the room finds all except the nearby Salvation Army Harbor Light attendees are in another 12-step program.
The idea that any website by itself and the Salvation Army's "recovery" program can get and keep anybody sober is an illusion. The fact that your friends are all anti AA is also revealing.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Oct 21, 2018 20:43:49 GMT -5
Soberinmi, Another inescapable truth is that alcohol abuse and addiction existed long before the origin of AA and other 12 step programs in the 1930s. I have absolutely nothing against AA and I think for many, maybe even most alcoholics, it is the best choice to become sober. But I’m certain that some individuals were able to find ways to break the addiction of alcohol and live sober lives long before the origin of AA. I agree with you that this forum, in its present form, would not have provided the support that I needed at the time. I feel very fortunate that I found it when I did. I often wish it had the exposure and participation that the old forum had, but that does not negate the fact that this method worked for me and for several others who are still members here. Mark/Jeyu
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 21, 2018 22:27:19 GMT -5
Soberinmi, Another inescapable truth is that alcohol abuse and addiction existed long before the origin of AA and other 12 step programs in the 1930s. I have absolutely nothing against AA and I think for many, maybe even most alcoholics, it is the best choice to become sober. But I’m certain that some individuals were able to find ways to break the addiction of alcohol and live sober lives long before the origin of AA. I agree with you that this forum, in its present form, would not have provided the support that I needed at the time. I feel very fortunate that I found it when I did. I often wish it had the exposure and participation that the old forum had, but that does not negate the fact that this method worked for me and for several others who are still members here. Mark/Jeyu The rest aside, it is still inescapable that no website, not any, can provide enough support for a true alcoholic, and maybe not for a problem drinker! You overlook the AA keystone, that an alcoholic can best identify or relate to another alcoholic. An alcoholic can see himself in another alcoholic before he can the alcoholic in himself. No offense intended, but you just don't show the understanding or experience that no matter what the consequences are the compulsion to drink will override common sense: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and drugs, that our lives had become unmanageable." You and the others just don't show the understanding of what it is like to be an alcoholic to be one.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Oct 22, 2018 11:09:21 GMT -5
Soberinmi, You are an excellent debater, but you make several inaccurate assumptions. I don’t overlook the AA keystone. In fact, I take it for face value as it was written, paying special attention to the tense in which it was written. The tense used is past, not present. It states that we “were” powerless over alcohol, NOT that we ARE powerless over alcohol. I feel that it is possible for some individuals to gain power over alcohol and regain control of their lives without AA or any 12 step program. I will never say that it can or will work for everyone, but it worked for me and for several others here. I believe in a Power greater than myself, but I believe that my Higher Power instilled in ME the ability to overcome my addiction to alcohol. This is not, rather was not (yes, tense matters) just a web site. It was a community of support that came to my need in one of the darkest moments of my life and showed me the path to sobriety. I was presented with many options, including AA, but I chose the Power in me to overcome my addiction to alcohol. I have lived this, so I understand it. Completely.
Mark/Jeyu
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 22, 2018 16:59:09 GMT -5
Soberinmi, You are an excellent debater, but you make several inaccurate assumptions. I don’t overlook the AA keystone. In fact, I take it for face value as it was written, paying special attention to the tense in which it was written. The tense used is past, not present. It states that we “were” powerless over alcohol, NOT that we ARE powerless over alcohol. I feel that it is possible for some individuals to gain power over alcohol and regain control of their lives without AA or any 12 step program. I will never say that it can or will work for everyone, but it worked for me and for several others here. I believe in a Power greater than myself, but I believe that my Higher Power instilled in ME the ability to overcome my addiction to alcohol. This is not, rather was not (yes, tense matters) just a web site. It was a community of support that came to my need in one of the darkest moments of my life and showed me the path to sobriety. I was presented with many options, including AA, but I chose the Power in me to overcome my addiction to alcohol. I have lived this, so I understand it. Completely. Mark/Jeyu Reality, what a concept! Try it some time. You are debating, more like improperly conflating and obfuscating, but I am not. I am just laying out the facts. As explained, the keystone, that which makes AA work were nothing else does, is the fact that alcoholics can best identify with another. It makes alcoholics feel like they are not alone, that there are others out there like them who understand and accept them. By definition, no true alcoholic ever regains power over alcohol except through abstinence. But wannabes. . . If you can do the right-about-face, you probably aren't an alcoholic. Ever hear the phrase that it is alcohol"ism" not alcohol"wasm?" If you were a problem drinker then yes, be grateful that your higher power spared you the misery of full blown alcoholism! Maybe what you have is an Internet addiction: "Internet addiction is characterized by excessive or poorly controlled preoccupations, urges or behaviours regarding computer use and internet access that lead to impairment or distress." I stand by the fact that no website by itself provides enough support to get an alcoholic sober and keep him sober. But if you get something of true value instead of feeding a psychiatric illness, more power to you!
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Post by jeyu0422 on Oct 22, 2018 17:37:21 GMT -5
Soberinmi, How long have you been involved with AA?
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 22, 2018 17:47:54 GMT -5
15 of nearly 30 years sobriety
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Post by jeyu0422 on Oct 22, 2018 19:33:57 GMT -5
“Reality, what a concept! Try it some time.
You are debating, more like improperly conflating and obfuscating, but I am not. I am just laying out the facts.”
Yes, I was debating, but I suppose I was the only one. Wow, 30 years; I rest my case. You may have the last word to attempt to prove your point as well as you have just proven mine.
Mark/Jeyu
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Post by soberinmi on Oct 22, 2018 22:04:44 GMT -5
quoting soberinmi: "Reality, what a concept! Try it some time." That's all!
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