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Post by Pam on Mar 15, 2016 17:24:25 GMT -5
Let's start with a basic set of definitions: How do you define 'spirituality'? How would you define a 'Higher Power'? What is the difference between spirituality and religion? What does the word dogma mean to you? What does the concept of "worship" mean to you?
*looking forward to your response and a discussion about how spirituality has made you stronger . . .
**By the way, the definitions are just points of reference for me to understand you.
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Post by achilles1957 on Mar 25, 2016 21:31:44 GMT -5
Hi Pam, I've only just viewed this post, I don't know how I missed it !
It'll take some thought to respond but I'm thinking....
:-)
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Post by jeyu0422 on Mar 26, 2016 21:58:12 GMT -5
Spirituality and Sobriety
Spirituality, to me, is the act of seeking to understand something greater than myself; nature, the universe, some force of good. That something would be my higher power. My definition would indicate that I obviously haven't quite gotten there yet, but over the years, mainly the last several, a few things have fallen into place for me. Many people choose religion to enhance their abilities to live spiritual lives, especially if their higher power is God. I have been that route and found that the dogma of organized religion inhibited rather than enhanced my spirituality. Long ago, in a confirmation class, I was told that during Holy Communion, the wine and crackers became the body and blood of Christ. I said, "You mean they represent the body and blood..... ". "No, they become the body and blood.... ". My thoughts, "That is total BS and I do not and will not ever buy into that thinking." That is one example of how religious dogma interfered with my spirituality. Up to that point, I was able, during communion, to benefit from a perceived spiritual closeness of my higher power. After that conversation, Holy Communion never again benefited me spiritually. Alcoholism certainly inhibited my ability to live a spiritual life as well, but that ability has been enhanced because of and through the process of recovery.
Afterlife.
When I was a kid, I remember driving up to our family cemetery. There was a 100 plus year old farm house close to it that was once in our family. To this day, I have a complete and detailed mental picture of that old home as it was about 50 years ago, long before it was abandoned, fell into disrepair, and was eventually destroyed. A few weeks ago, I drove by that old homesite and stopped to look around. There were remnants of a foundation, a few old bricks, several small clumps of narcissus flowers in bloom, but otherwise, very little evidence that the home ever existed. So did it exist? Yes. Does it exist? Yes. That old house, for some reason, made such an impression on me that it still exists, in vivid detail, in my mind. This is my very rough understanding of afterlife. We have an afterlife if we exist after death in others' memories, and afterlife only exists past one generation if we have made enough of an impact while here so that our ideals are firmly planted in the minds of others.
So to attempt to complete the circle, my thinking is that a spiritual life is one lived in such a way that having lived on this earth positively impacts others long after we are dead and gone. This is only possible for me by living the remainder of my life seeking sobriety.
Mark/jeyu
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Post by Pam on Mar 28, 2016 8:03:58 GMT -5
I have always understood the notion of the Spiritual in relation to God. Spirituality is a new term for me in relation to personal growth.
I have heard of the concept dogma in relation to other religions but never in relation to Southern Baptists. I only recall the words "doctrines" and beliefs.
It's interesting that the conversation regarding communion was an obstruction for you.
It was a ritual for me in my youth. Whenever I began to think about the ritual, the sermon (re: the reason we take communion) and the promise we make as we take communion . . . a part of me was distracted by the symbolism of the bread and wine. Whether or not it was the body of Christ or represented the body of Christ was confusing. However, the key was the portion of the ritual that indicated why we take communion. "Do this in remembrance of me . . . the reminder of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. So, I eventually dismissed the word choice and focused on the purpose.
*That is an excellent analogy in relation to a house formerly standing on its foundation.
I have not attended church in quite some time, however I do not think it has any bearing on my faith . . . while others may believe differently.
I suppose I've been struggling on and off with the notion of a Higher Power. Since it implies . . . other entities . . . So accepting that the world is filled with believers of faith in their religion/higher power, it's easier to simply remember that religion is not necessarily my common thread.
*not debating/challenging/etc. **just sharing ***Thank you Mark for sharing what spirituality and sobriety mean to you.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Mar 28, 2016 17:43:16 GMT -5
*not debating/challenging/etc. **just sharing
Hi Pam. Me too. It's a very interesting subject. I don't at all discount the possibility that an afterlife, such as described in the Bible, exists. I don't argue that it could have all happened as THEY say. Well, the New Testament anyway. My particular conundrum is that while I do believe there is a higher power, I'm just not sure that any particular religion has it exactly right. I'm relatively certain that I don't either. Perhaps each of us has his or her own higher power. If someone's individual higher power leads that individual to be a better person, then how can it not be of benefit? Mark/Jeyu
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Post by Pam on Mar 28, 2016 20:37:52 GMT -5
Hello Mark,
I agree with your last statement that a person's religion benefits them . . . and that's where I falter in my faith a bit . . .
Baptists believe whole-heartedly in the mission of Christ (to teach the Gospel - through Christ all enter the kingdom of heaven. So, for me it's an uneasy balance of respecting another person's faith/beliefs and learning more about those beliefs from a secular vantage (the origins/the rituals) . . . essentially . . . out of curiosity and not altering my understanding of the doctrine I believe. Generally, it increases the likelihood that I research Christianity for the purpose of comparison and a better understanding of that doctrine. (I know that sounds narrow minded or maybe it's a good way for me to understand why I believe in God.)
I saw this a bit ago when searching for a quote and it made me pause a bit. . . . I don't know if this is from a fictional piece . . . I'll presume so . . . though that makes it no less thought provoking. "Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?" Annie Dillard
*Religion and doctrine are very complex . . . I appreciate your posts.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Mar 28, 2016 21:57:51 GMT -5
Pam, I have to periodically remind myself that the different religions were formed by people, not by God. I'm sure that some of their founders fervently believed in their teachings and others followed because of the same. But there were many other reasons to form particular denominations, many being excuses to justify certain behavior of its members. The Anglican Church, for example, broke away from Catholicism primarily because of the prohibition of divorce. Some denominations believe that absence the physical act of Babtism, the individual is destined to burn in Hell. I have found in situations where everyone thinks that they are right and everyone else is wrong, that everyone is probably wrong. Not that I have the answers, but I'm not ever going to condemn to Hell someone who might have different views than mine. I think that most of the wars and terrorism today are fought in the name of an extreme viewpoint of a religion or belief. I do know one thing for sure; if my Higher Power ever told me to kill someone who did not share my beliefs, I would be looking for a different Higher Power. I am also in complete agreement with the Eskimo! Mark/Jeyu
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Post by jeyu0422 on Mar 28, 2016 22:08:26 GMT -5
Pam, Not that I don't appreciate your viewpoint. I do. But it would be interesting to hear from some others. I'll have to admit that I could never be classified as "devout" anything, except maybe at one time a "devout alcoholic". Mark/Jeyu
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Post by achilles1957 on Mar 29, 2016 1:05:29 GMT -5
I've heard it said .."religion is for those who fear hell, spirituality is for those who have been there". I understand the concept of the adage and the distinction it's trying to make. Thankfully I don't believe in a heaven or hell outside of that which we create for ourselves. I'm also not keen on generalisations in general ;-)
I was very religious as a child (I wanted to be a nun and live a life of solitude) however I was constantly questioning the doctrine that I was taught. e.g. why would a baby go to "purgatory" if it died without being baptised ... I soon learnt that blind faith was expected and silence demanded. There were so many questions without answers. I was desperately looking for "connection" and as I was young, found that "safety" in the closest thing I could find to spirituality/connection, i.e. religion.
I believe that religion and politics go hand in hand and that both are as corrupt and as flawed as the human condition that created them. The destruction and horror that's emanated from ego-centred dogma is beyond comprehension. It's sad ... we're all seeking connection, many find it in religion (which can be comforting to say the least) and many find it within themselves (comforting also) ... it's personal. Imo, organised religion is fear-based and personally I feel there is enough to fear from my fellow man without having to fear my, or anyone else's, higher power.
Mark, I absolutely relate to your communion story ... spot on same for me ... I felt so connected to the symbolism when I was small but when I grew up and "understood" that it wasn't supposed to be symbolic, well to say I was disturbed was an understatement. I was so into the symbolism, the ritual, the parable of the bible ... in hindsight, it was the "magic" of it all that I loved. I still see that magic in the world around me and I'm very grateful for that ... I also love to go into churches/temples and sacred landscapes as well.
Enough rambling ... good topic Pam
:-)
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Post by Pam on Mar 29, 2016 8:15:27 GMT -5
Pam, Not that I don't appreciate your viewpoint. I do. But it would be interesting to hear from some others. I'll have to admit that I could never be classified as "devout" anything, except maybe at one time a "devout alcoholic". Mark/Jeyu Are you asking me not to continue to post? I don't think that's very nice. Okay. . . on second reading, I don't think you meant any harm. It's a thread . . . so I presume others will share and respond. . . . **I'm just sharing and trying to relate
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Post by Pam on Mar 29, 2016 8:28:32 GMT -5
Pam, I have to periodically remind myself that the different religions were formed by people, not by God. I'm sure that some of their founders fervently believed in their teachings and others followed because of the same. But there were many other reasons to form particular denominations, many being excuses to justify certain behavior of its members. The Anglican Church, for example, broke away from Catholicism primarily because of the prohibition of divorce. Some denominations believe that absence the physical act of Babtism, the individual is destined to burn in Hell. I have found in situations where everyone thinks that they are right and everyone else is wrong, that everyone is probably wrong. Not that I have the answers, but I'm not ever going to condemn to Hell someone who might have different views than mine. I think that most of the wars and terrorism today are fought in the name of an extreme viewpoint of a religion or belief. I do know one thing for sure; if my Higher Power ever told me to kill someone who did not share my beliefs, I would be looking for a different Higher Power. I am also in complete agreement with the Eskimo! Mark/Jeyu I agree with you. Man created religion. The historical fervor and its victims (in the name of any religion) is horrifying . . . . That is the aspect of Christianity that is most difficult to accept. Again . . . man not God adapting a stance that did not allow for understanding, tolerance, or respect.
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Post by Pam on Mar 29, 2016 8:43:35 GMT -5
I've heard it said .."religion is for those who fear hell, spirituality is for those who have been there". I understand the concept of the adage and the distinction it's trying to make. Thankfully I don't believe in a heaven or hell outside of that which we create for ourselves. I'm also not keen on generalisations in general ;-) I was very religious as a child (I wanted to be a nun and live a life of solitude) however I was constantly questioning the doctrine that I was taught. e.g. why would a baby go to "purgatory" if it died without being baptised ... I soon learnt that blind faith was expected and silence demanded. There were so many questions without answers. I was desperately looking for "connection" and as I was young, found that "safety" in the closest thing I could find to spirituality/connection, i.e. religion. I believe that religion and politics go hand in hand and that both are as corrupt and as flawed as the human condition that created them. The destruction and horror that's emanated from ego-centred dogma is beyond comprehension. It's sad ... we're all seeking connection, many find it in religion (which can be comforting to say the least) and many find it within themselves (comforting also) ... it's personal. Imo, organised religion is fear-based and personally I feel there is enough to fear from my fellow man without having to fear my, or anyone else's, higher power. Mark, I absolutely relate to your communion story ... spot on same for me ... I felt so connected to the symbolism when I was small but when I grew up and "understood" that it wasn't supposed to be symbolic, well to say I was disturbed was an understatement. I was so into the symbolism, the ritual, the parable of the bible ... in hindsight, it was the "magic" of it all that I loved. I still see that magic in the world around me and I'm very grateful for that ... I also love to go into churches/temples and sacred landscapes as well. Enough rambling ... good topic Pam :-) Wow . . . your experience is so different from mine. I don't really see the fear inducing image of God you describe as a part of my experience. I didn't even know about the concept of purgatory until it was mentioned in a movie or book. That's so different. I've had a few conversations with a co-worker who described the behavior of her teachers/nuns as being quite harsh. However, I have always been drawn to the beauty of sacred places (stained windows of churches, relics, etc.) and interested in the ritual involved in worship. I understand the notion that religion and politics may bear similar characteristics, however those negative traits eventually revert back to man and greed/power, it shouldn't reflect on or represent God and his love. When we begin to speak in terms of spirituality, our ultimate goal should be reverence of God and not ourselves. After all, we increase our faith not in ourselves but in a power higher . . . God. (Just sharing my opinion . . . though it sounds otherwise.) It is so powerful . . . how we all search for connection and a reason for being, purpose within their lives . . . Whose works do you read for edification? Glad you shared . . .It's one of the best ways to learn . . .from others' experiences.
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Post by PJ on Mar 29, 2016 10:46:08 GMT -5
Pam, Not that I don't appreciate your viewpoint. I do. But it would be interesting to hear from some others. I'll have to admit that I could never be classified as "devout" anything, except maybe at one time a "devout alcoholic". Mark/Jeyu Hello Mark, Thanks for letting me know about this discussion. I had planned on reading the posts and then sharing my thoughts privately with you, but then I had a change of heart. So I'm just going to ramble here ... My faith is everything to me; the very essence of my being. It isn't about organized, practiced religion, which I know gives many people great comfort and strength. Rather, it's a deep, strong, all-encompassing assurance that I'm never alone and never have to bear the burdens of life on my own. It's peace. It's joy. It's complete and total trust in God without question or hesitation. I don't call Him a higher power, even though that's certainly accurate. The reason I don't is because I've seen that become the pseudonym for people who aren't really believers in God, but who need someone/something greater than themselves in their lives. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but my higher power is God and no other. So, I call it what it is. As I told you in our emails, I don't argue or debate my faith; I have neither the desire nor intention to do that. I realize it isn't based on science or tangible "proof"; I've heard all that and more, and I don't care. If someone doesn't believe, I respect that. I won't argue or debate about my faith any more than I'd argue or debate about my race being Caucasian, my gender being female, or my eyes being brown. They are what they are and my faith is what it is. And to me, it's everything. I always believed in God, but it wasn't until the past decade or so that I've become so spiritual; and I do see them as two different things. This is only my viewpoint, but I see faith as something you have, and spirituality as something you do, as in nurturing your faith to keep it alive and kicking. I'm a spiritual person because I constantly renew my faith, constantly communicate with God (yeah, an old lady who appears to be talking to herself), pray profusely, and live accordingly. If I have a problem, I don't ask anyone's advice, I pray about it. If I'm overwhelmed, and I have been lately, I ask God to help me through this, to guide me. If I had to sum my viewpoint up, I'd say there is no right or wrong when it comes to faith; it's whatever it is to you, whatever you need it to be, whatever gives you the greatest peace and joy. And if we listen, really listen, we can hear the answers we seek. Hugs to you.
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Post by jeyu0422 on Mar 29, 2016 12:43:51 GMT -5
Hey You All (which would naturally abbreviate as Y'all),
I found it! No, not religion or the complete understanding of my God or Higher Power. I found the difference between this forum and the old one. The old one had discussions, debates, and yes, sometimes all out fights. Often those were directly related to alcoholism and recovery, but sometimes they weren't. They were, however, interesting, thought provoking, and I learned from them. This thread may not be directly related to alcohol or recovery, but it is very much related to living life, and for an alcoholic, recovered or recovering (you pick the tense), living life is directly related to alcohol.
Pam, I'm glad you reread my post. I certainly wasn't trying to silence you, if fact just the opposite. I'm glad that you started this thread. Jenn, you always have a unique perspective that is very thought provoking. I always learn from you. PJ. It worked. I knew you couldn't resist. Now that you're back, will you consider sticking around?
More later. Gotta get back to work.
Mark/Jeyu
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Post by Pam on Apr 1, 2016 8:14:29 GMT -5
Next question: Is it possible to live a sober life without spirituality? Sober as in without alcohol, with a sense of looking forward and remaining in the mindset that led to drinking? (Feel free to rephrase the question)
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